asavitzk: Sexism at Rocky?

Alex (

asavitzk) wrote,
@ 2006-10-31 12:31:00

Sexism at Rocky?
Jimmy made a post recently http://jrising.livejournal.com/25259.html that others have linked to which is how I found it (since he's not on my friends list - it's too long as it is). It honestly shocked me. Much like the complaint we got about a couple of preshows from an audience member. The two she complained about both ended with the "objectified woman" killing the objectifier and "winning". How is that sexist? It's showing sexist themes that get beaten down by a strong woman in the end.

Do we love naked women? Of course we do. And believe it or not we love naked men too. I seem to recall that last month's preshow featured JD and Denny kissing and that got louder applause than any other part of the preshow. Do we tell women at the show they can't have a particular role or be in charge of something just because they're women? Of course not. We've had women in charge of every single tech crew at one point or another and we've had a woman play every single role on stage at one point or another.

Let's look at this. We have four crews. Two of them are led by women. If that isn't considered equal then I don't know what is. It might be sexist if they had to sleep with me to get those jobs but they didn't - no matter how much I begged Ruthie.

I guess I just don't understand how wanting to see women as sexy eye candy while at the same time *respecting* them is sexist. The people who join our show for the former without the respecting part are weeded out eventually and leave. Do we expect everyone at the show to be sexy? Actually yeah - in some form or another. I think every single person there is sexy and I have no problem telling them.

(46 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Blame Canada

d_day
2006-10-31 05:38 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I can't say I was shocked by all this. I feel like it's sort of how I reacted to all the "racism" and making fun of the mentally handicapped when I fist joined. It can all be a little disjointing if you don't have the whole picture and the whole picture can be a little hard to grasp.

I keep trying to figure out how Sara Wendall would react. I think someone should post it to the list and find out :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Blame Canada

asavitzk
2006-10-31 05:45 pm UTC (link)

Racism, sexism, etc...is only offensive if you intend it to be. I make fun of Jews - that certainly doesn't mean that I'm serious - I'm a Jew! But do I get offended when others at the show make fun of the Jews? No - because I know they don't mean it either. The more jokes are used, the less serious an issue can be taken.

If anybody seriously thinks I hate retards just because I make jokes about retards, then they haven't bothered to get to know me and shouldn't be passing judgment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

transparencies
2006-10-31 05:50 pm UTC (link)

i think that it's not always obvious, though. a lot of it is in good fun and a lot is actually very empowering. we have a lot of very strong women at the show and that comes across often, both onstage and off. but i think there is a tendency to assume that a woman should be showing a lot of skin, should be exuding a sense of the kind of sexiness which is widely accepted by our society (and i apologize for using the word "society" because it sounds cliche but it is what i actually mean here). some, maybe most, of the women at the show are very comfortable with that. and once you know the people involved and understand the spirit in which it's all done, it seems quite harmless.

the problem is that some people are offended by it. some women are made to feel pressured. some feel really terrible about speaking up and asserting their objections. and not many other people know about it because it's not talked about. as i said in one of my responses in jimmy's journal, i've been asked to help safeguard fbc members against some of this before. and it is upsetting. even more so because i don't believe that, in most cases, it's intentional.

peer pressure is a bitch.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

asavitzk
2006-10-31 05:57 pm UTC (link)

If someone is doing it unintentionally then it should be brought to their attention - not sheltered. It should be brought up and shown to that person so they can either change their behaivior or at least acknowledge it and others would be aware.

Rocky is extreme. Not in the Mountain Dew way, but in the way that it brings out the most extreme personalities and ideas. Some people flourish in that environment and others get pushed down. Unfortunately that's how it works and I'm sorry, but I've seen it make more people strong than weak.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

transparencies
2006-10-31 07:06 pm UTC (link)

don't be sorry, i agree with you on that. it is a great environment for a lot of people. and the argument could, should, has been made that anyone who doesn't thrive there should leave (case in point: a certain former crew head who joined the show at a time when she really needed to and did do much better in life than she would have without it. then it became a setting which wasn't helpful to her and she left. though she's not left the *people* because she loves them and they continue to help sustain her, only outside the confines of the show). but i think the pressure some people feel at the show is being underestimated or denied. and yes, it should be brought out into the light when it occurs but that doesn't always feel like an option to people who already feel pressured.

i'm not saying the fbc is a cesspool of misogyny (or racism or any other kind of bigotry) and it certainly attracts people who already possess a certain attitude, but sometimes personal boundries are ignored or intentionally smashed down. i don't think it's a bad thing for us to be reminded of that every once in a while.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

quality617
2006-10-31 06:08 pm UTC (link)

Everything that's old is new again.

I'm not saying that someone can't be offended, but being offended is a personal problem. When you thow a nifty tag like "objectification" to it (which I don't think even applies here) it's a dodge to make everyone else responsible for your delicate sensibilities.

I don't think less of people offended by what we do. Return the favor, and don't think less of me because I'm NOT offended.

(Reply to this)

	myselftheliar 2006-10-31 06:33 pm UTC (link)
	Personally, if I was at Rocky and I DIDNT see objectified women in bikinis, I would complain. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	5411tech 2006-10-31 08:16 pm UTC (link)
	But do you complain that men aren't objectified in thong underwear? I am, but I'm curious why others aren't. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	myselftheliar 2006-10-31 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	No because they are. What do you think Rocky's ENTIRE PURPOSE is. (Rocky the character) he is EYE CANDY. he barely even speaks. He's "truly beautiful to behold". Want to see a preshow full of thong-wearing men? Go write one. JD and Denny were totally "objectified" in the preshow Closer. Hell, Denny was on a leash!! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	5411tech 2006-10-31 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not arguing that the movie is biased, because I think it isn't. I hardly think that JD and Denny were "objectified" in Closer any more than Diva was. And as I've said before, it's not individual preshows, it's more the percentages and biases overall. We can all come up with examples of men not wearing clothes, but integrated over time I think its vastly unequal. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	myselftheliar 2006-10-31 06:34 pm UTC (link)
	Also, isn't the very nature of Rocky to shock and offend? Here's to tits and men in fishnets! Huzzah! (Reply to this) (Thread)

leukosia
2006-10-31 07:42 pm UTC (link)

exactly. Not to say in certain atmospheres, of course, what goes on at Rocky is not appropraite, But it's Rocky. We all know what to expect going into Rocky. It's a very sexually charged atmosphere and anyone who can't stand the heat should get out of the kitchen, and I myself cannot deal with people who do not speak up for themselves. If I have a problem with someone at the show or how they speak to me/treat me, I will let them fucking know, and guess what? If they know it's truly an issue with you that makes you uncomfortable they will stop, because it really is all in good fun. I've been with the show for 5 years and where I don't mind being visually stimulating, I'm probably one of the biggest prudes at Rocky, and by now everyone knows that, and it has never been an issue really.

Perfect example. About 2 weeks ago at a preshow meeting Gary and Dave were taking pictures of some of the girls to paste on some of the playmates bodies, and I declined because I'm not comfortable with my head on a naked woman's body. I don't want that visual to exist. And guess what? I wasn't forced into it and no one tried to make me feel guilty about it. Perhaps the issue here is with people who don't know certain members very now and have assumptions about how they actually function. I like to think most of us if not all of us know how far we can go with certain other members of the cast.

Though, no joke, we have had some creeps at Rocky, I won't name names here but we all knew that and spoke of it and they're no longer around

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	leukosia 2006-10-31 07:44 pm UTC (link)
	I meant to say "very well" not "very now" (Reply to this) (Parent)

	truered 2006-10-31 08:37 pm UTC (link)
	I won't repeat my post from the line in Jimmy's journal here, but I totally agree with Little Jen on this one. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen and let the rest of us play with the fire. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jdub0014
2006-10-31 07:00 pm UTC (link)

Well said, Alex, and I'm in complete agreement. I view Rocky in a similar light as I view South Park. South Park makes fun of everyone and everything. They don't discriminate when it comes to the jokes they make and the people they target, which makes the show acceptable and enjoyable. Yes, it may offend some people, and that's okay, but it's fair and no one can argue with that.

Rocky is like that with sexuality. Sure, we have scantilly clad girls on-stage making out with each other, but... HELLO?!... the show's hero is a transvestite. I don't even understand how Rocky can be viewed as sexist. We openly accept homosexuals, hetrosexuals and bisexuals. And last I checked Brad gets pretty naked on-stage, as well as guys during the pre-shows.

But we also have an audience to think about. We're performers, and we're there to have fun and satisfy our audience. Perhaps the ratio of half-naked girls to half-naked guys is unbalanced, but it's not a matter of sexism.

I hope this makes sense. I'm on like 0 hours of sleep.

Oh P.S. Is my icon sexist?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	oops wrong icon :X myselftheliar 2006-10-31 08:13 pm UTC (link)
	I am so offended by your icon. How dare you objectify women by refering only to their boobs. For shame. (Reply to this) (Parent)

suitboyskin
2006-10-31 07:08 pm UTC (link)

Not to invalidate anyone who believes that FBC promotes sexism, they are as entitled to their opinion as anybody, but I find that alot of people have difficulty sitting with the fact that in many, many instances, politically correct/socially acceptable situations/behavior isn't funny. While this doesn't address every element of FBC that was described as sexist I would say that the lion's share of the more socially unacceptable material at Rocky is done for comedic effect.

Children attempting to murder their parents is not funny in real life. It's scary and disturbing. However, the dynamic between Stewie and Lois Griffen is hysterical why, because it's a cartoon. Sexism, racism, laughing at the handicapped, killing strippers, etc. are likewise not funny in real life but in a skit or a preshow or callback line are funny because of the fact that they are socially unacceptable.

I find that Rocky tends to be one of the more egalitarian of objectifying institutions, hell that's what made the film so riskee' in the 70's. The most provacatively dressed people in the show are mostly men and in preshows we've even done straight/gay versions of the same bit aka Santa Baby a few years back.

This is not to say that nobody is going to be offended by what we do. Sure they are, but if you find the atmosphere/content of the show to be offensive to you then FBC might simply not be the place for you. Were this an actual job or something similar then this might be a problem that needed addressing but FBC and Rocky in general is completely voluntary entertainment.

With, of course, the exception of those of us who are only with the cast to fulfil a court ordered community service requirement.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Egalitarian Objectification?

5411tech
2006-10-31 08:14 pm UTC (link)

I *don't* think that FBC is very egalitarian in its objectification of people. I think the movie absolutely is, which is why I love it. But the callbacks? Janet's sexual exploration gets her called a slut, while Brad having sex with a transvestite elicits no negative response. And while I'm glad there have been preshows in the past that "objectify" men to the same degree that women are, I have yet to see a sexy-guy trixie. It's not individuals, individual preshows, or anything like that that bothers me. It's the unbalance in expectations overall. This really struck me on Friday seeing all the Halloween preshows with lights, costumes, and final blocking for the first time. In a normal month, with only two preshows, its hard to see the general trend. But that many preshows in a row, it struck me that women were being sexy, stripping, etc. while men a) weren't and b) were allowed to do other things, like be clever and funny. Obviously there are exceptions. I was lucky enough to see a scaled-down version of the "soccer practice" preshow recently. Yes, men do put themselves on display once in a while, but in my view, it's not often enough considering the extent to which women do/are expected to put themselves on display. Brad does get naked, and there are some guys who reciprocate the open displays of sexuality, but its just not enough.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Egalitarian Objectification?

asavitzk
2006-10-31 08:23 pm UTC (link)

"its just not enough."

How much is enough? And who decides that? Do we have to have a guy's ass onstage each week for the same amount of time as a woman's ass?

See, that's the problem with this sort of argument - it's an argument of opinions and by their very nature, opinions aren't wrong.

So the only way to change things you don't like is to do just that - change things. How many preshows featuring naked men have you proposed? How many preshow meetings have you been at so you could put in your two cents about what kind of eye candy you think should be on stage?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Egalitarian Objectification?

truered
2006-10-31 08:44 pm UTC (link)

I don't know who you are, so please don't take this at all personally, I'm sure you're a very nice person. But being that you haven't even been around for long enough for me to know your name I find it very difficult to give any credibility to your argument.

I've been around for 6 years. I've seen 6 years of both women and men gettin' down, dirty, and naked. If it seems imballanced, maybe that's because our girls are hotter and generally more willing to get half clothed than the guys are.

If you're so concerned, why don't you write a preshow with some guys in it instead of expecting someone else to do it?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Egalitarian Objectification? 5411tech 2006-10-31 10:42 pm UTC (link)
	Conversely, you haven't been around recently enough for me to know your name. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: Egalitarian Objectification? suitboyskin 2006-11-01 03:51 pm UTC (link)
	Actually Brad having sex with a transvestite elicits a wide variety of unflattering AP lines and the audience refers to Janet as a slut from the beginning of the film on. Brad and Janet are both given insulting nicknames. As for the ration of scantily clad men to women there really is no scale for determining how much is "enough". (Reply to this) (Parent)

jrising
2006-10-31 07:33 pm UTC (link)

The problem isn't that we offend people-- I *love* that we offend people. The problem isn't that we encourage women to be outwardly sexual or that we love them for it. And I think we do treat women with respect within the cast.

The problem is that we have an atmosphere of specific sex roles both within the cast and portrayed to the audience. Women are sexy, men are appreciative. Even our female-dominant preshows play to male fantasies. Sex is so much more than that. Sexuality at Rocky should be *radical*. The original movie was.

We need to ask why men are expected to be so much less outwardly sexual than women, and I don't think it's because women are inherently better at it. But as long as men are asked to just take baby-steps, we're going to be stuck in a cliched lop-sided sexuality that will never be as good.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

asavitzk
2006-10-31 07:53 pm UTC (link)

I disagree. I don't think women are *expected* to be more outwardly sexual. I think we just have outwardly sexual women at the show right now. We've had outwardly sexual men at the show before and we will again. Like Arthur said - everything old is new again.

Did you ever see the Big and Stupid preshow? Did you see Are You a Boy or a Girl? There are plenty of examples that could swing the argument both ways when the simple fact is, the argument is stupid. Kaloostian said it best when he said that we'll always have the problem but at least it's only 1/100th as bad as other groups like a frat house or landsdown st. club.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dariusdraven 2006-10-31 08:07 pm UTC (link)
	Hey! Keep me and my brothers out of this! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	asavitzk 2006-10-31 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	Oh don't get me wrong. I'm sure your frat house is different. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	dariusdraven 2006-10-31 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	No, not at all. Just leave us out of this! (Reply to this) (Parent)

spyrit
2006-10-31 09:21 pm UTC (link)

While I remember parading around on stage with no shirt on during a preshow (and not minding, knowing I could have said no), I also remember Acid and Baron wearing almost nothing at all. I think the amount of sexual objectification goes both ways, and is pretty voluntary. It never bothered me when I worked at Rocky. I was also impressed that gender really had little to do with role assignment (Jen was a great Eddie!).

(Reply to this)

feel the need to contribute.

koshnfurter
2006-10-31 09:28 pm UTC (link)

I don't know, I can't speak for what happens at the show now. It's been many years since I left, and my experience may not be remotely relevant anymore.

As far as what is portrayed on stage, I've seen many preshows that display both men and women, other's have mentioned Sit on my Face, Are You a Boy or a Girl? and others, but one of my favorites was always "That's the Way I Like It" lots of partial male nudity in that one. But regardless, what happens on stage is for the audience. It is entertainment. And while no one should feel pressured to participate in something they are not comfortable with, trying to achieve some sort of artificial balance is nothing but harmful to the show. If people want to see more naked men on stage, they should attend the pre-show meetings, let their creative juices flow, and throw their ideas out there. Not just look for others to magically make it happen. I'd be honestly shocked if a pre-show was ever nixed because it involved male nakedness as opposed to female.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: feel the need to contribute.

mals13
2006-10-31 09:52 pm UTC (link)

there have been instances in the past where people have complained that we don't do enough preshows that display male sexuality...and you know, it's not because we don't want to. It's that no one has supplied enough ideas that will get the same reaction as something that might involve a woman's sexuality.

as for something like trixie, we don't turn down guys that want to do trixie, we just never get any guys to volunteer. does this mean we should peer pressure them into it? no. because then we would be hypocrites, because it seems that one of the biggest issues is the peer pressure at the show. so, guys, please, do a trixie!! and we have had men in the past do them, and because it's total artists' license and freedom to do whatever they want, generally it ends up being something in drag.

this is annoying. it's going nowhere. this is going to be a debate that can go on forever. nothing's going to change unless someone decides to step up and propose a preshow or perform a trixie that involves more male sexuality. we've been doing the same thing at rocky for how long now?? like many of us have said before, there are definitely going to be people that disagree with what we do, and if they don't like it, then it's just not the place for them. the rest of us are pretty comfortable with the goings on. And if there was a big problem with preshows exploiting women too much, then there would probably be less women volunteering for preshows like that.

this isn't a job, it's not school (i think someone may have mentioned this before)...we have no legal obligations at the show. and yeah, some people have personal issues with what happens but the majority of the cast/crew/alumni have not had much of a problem. it's just the way it's been. and last time i checked we're still having the time of our lives.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	catullus_5 2006-10-31 10:00 pm UTC (link)
	Most Trixies are women because Trixie is a woman. Trixies are variations on a theme from the original stage show. It's definitely not because of the cast and audience refusing to let male Trixies upset their sexist preconceptions. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	mals13 2006-10-31 10:19 pm UTC (link)
	i hope you don't think was suggesting that. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	catullus_5 2006-10-31 10:24 pm UTC (link)
	Of course not; I was just pointing out that the reason for girl Trixies is even more innocuous than "because the audience likes girls." (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: feel the need to contribute.

koshnfurter
2006-10-31 10:06 pm UTC (link)

Mali,

I agree with pretty much everything you said. And yeah, I agree, most of the time when male sexuality is displayed, it is either in drag, or done for humorous effect, whereas femail sexuality is less frequently (at least as a percentage) used for those reasons.

You also mentioned a vital point, its not a job, its not school, there's no Title 9 here. And therefore as Alex said, Men like looking at women, women like looking at women, some men, and some women like looking at men. The form is just less visually pleasing, sexually or otherwise, the end result can also be explained by supply and demand.

Rocky is certainly not for some people, it CAN be an intimidating environment, and if it is overly so for someone, they should not participate. For others that encouragement to explore can be very freeing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: feel the need to contribute.

revolos55
2006-10-31 11:33 pm UTC (link)

Men like looking at women, women like looking at women, some men and some women like looking at men.

I think it's somewhat important to bring up the fact that isn't exactly a new trend. Art throughout history has been about the glory, beauty and appreciation of the female form. For every statue of David there are 50 more scupltures of nude women.

And you can say "well just because something has always been that way doesn't make it right". Yes, please, go tell Botticelli and Donatello and the rest of Rennaisance masters that should have maybe thought about doing something else.

And not a specific reply to this post, or this comment, but it's kinda of irking/bugging/annoying me that the subtext flipside of this whole situation is that I'm some sort of lecherous sexist misogynist because I enjoy looking at the scantily clad women at Rocky, and because I never lament the fact that there aren't more scantily clad men around. Like, umm, this guy ^ koshnfurter said, it's supply and demand. I think if there was a big push to see more men running around stage like in Soccer Practice, then there would be. I enjoyed seeing Denny and JD make out. But if I ever come up with a preshow, more likely than not, it will involve hot chicks, because that's where my interests lay. Supply and demand.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: feel the need to contribute. koshnfurter 2006-11-01 03:19 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you for putting that much more eloquently than I did... (Reply to this) (Parent)

just_al
2006-10-31 10:12 pm UTC (link)

First of all.. if you think the preshows lean heavily towards provocatively attired women it's because that is what people write. Not just the men but the women write them too. Also, our audience seems to like the preshows with sexily dressed women and the cast likes applause so you'll probably see more.

Next time you go to the show, take a walk up and down the line outside and see how the audience is dressed. You are going to see a lot of women dressed in a way that may lend itself to the belief that they are being objectified, but in reality they've finally found a place where they can let their hair down and feel attractive.

I did the show for a very long time, I even directed for almost 5 years. We put men who were nice to look at up on stage to be looked at. Hell, I even threw a hint as to what might be in the Rocky audition towards Jim Allen because he was CHISELED OUT OF MARBLE and had to be on MY STAGE.

Rocky is about being uninhibited in the face of society's conventions. Some of that may appear sexist but to find any of the goings on sexist is to allow yourself to not step away from polite society and give in to the hedonism and self expression that most people come to rocky for. Seriously, look at the audience and see how much they enjoy how freaky it is at the Rocky Horror Picture Show. If you don't get why they are there and why they are having a good time, you just don't get it.

(Reply to this)

catullus_5
2006-10-31 10:18 pm UTC (link)

A few people are saying basically "no one's forcing you to be here, so go away if it's not for you." This is a valid response, but not an ideal one for either party. Ideally, instead of leaving, a person could gain a better understanding of what it's all about, and thus have his or her concerns assuaged and stay with the show. No one should have to quit if there's any way to avoid quitting. And on the other side, as a member of the group being criticized, "maybe it's just not for you" doesn't satisfy me either. If I were an author and someone accused my book of being racist, I wouldn't just shrug - I'd speak up and challenge that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

mals13
2006-10-31 10:27 pm UTC (link)

we're not criticizing anybody. someone is obviously uncomfortable and she did something about it for herself. I know she's not trying to change things, but she voiced her opinions which in turn spawned this debate. Don't get me wrong, i'm not telling people to leave if they don't like it, and we're definitely not going to force them away because we're not going to change, all of that is their own perrogative (sp?). I like Elaina, I'm sorry to that she's leaving, but it's also nice to know that there's a legit reason why. I commend her for telling it like it is, some people might just keep it to themselves. It's just too bad that things really are the way they are and that not everyone can be happy with it. But that's what Rocky is all about: freedom to express yourself. in any way you want. and there are just some that don't feel comfortable with the ways that some of us choose to do so.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

My 2 Cents (after reading all of that...)

smurf24
2006-10-31 11:41 pm UTC (link)

I have been at the show for almost 2 years and as one of those female tech heads who Alex refers to, I have never felt that I didn't have a choice at Rocky. If I choose to be half-naked onstage, it is because I choose to be. If I don't want to or if I get asked to be in something that I am not comfortable with, I decline. I have never felt pressured, nor have I ever seen anyone be pressured. And, as head of costumes, I can tell you, I work where most of the nudity takes place. Some people want to be looked at, some want to be touched, and some don't want any part of it and all those choices are respected.

The fun thing about Rocky and the thing that I love most about it is that there is an element of choice. You can choose to be flirty and have others flirt back. You can choose to be an observer or you can jump right in. Rocky is a group of wonderful people, a great movie, and a place to put on a good show. You can choose your level of involvement.

I understand both sides of this argument. As a woman, I feel perfectly respected at Rocky and that is why it has been a big part of my life for the last 2 years. I can understand how some women might not feel the same way. But then, that is a choice too. If something makes you uncomfortable, you can either stand up for yourself and make things better or you can leave. Complaining does nothing but throw words around. If you want things changed, you have to make suggestions for how to make things better.

(Reply to this)

	Re: Blame Canada twyst976 2006-11-01 01:51 pm UTC (link)
	Here is my question then. "How do you join Rocky and then get offended by what goes on there?" I dont think we are out recruiting anywhere other than the show, and if you see the show you should know what you are getting into. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Blame Canada just_al 2006-11-01 05:07 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not a big fan of all the racially themed humor on one night stand at the apollo. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	because it needs to be said. dollyknuckles 2006-11-01 04:41 pm UTC (link)
	I just need to say that I find it hilarious that the same person who sparked this debate with their departure was walking around my house topless at an afterparty. (Reply to this)

kev_bot
2006-11-02 09:35 pm UTC (link)

You know, I'm not quite sure how to take this complaint here. I mentioned it in my LJ about Rocky: the preshows were very heavily this year women being objectified, then turning and taking control, and destroying their objectifiers. It was a VERY OBVIOUS theme of female empowerment. I just don't get this at all. Do we all have to stop saying "slut" when we see Janet on the screen now? Sometimes people take this stuff too far.

(Reply to this)

	kev_bot 2006-11-02 09:41 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, and just as an aside: a good way to get rid of perceived sexism is having Twinkie be shirtless. A lot. That is all. (Reply to this)

Two Cents

bodhisoma
2006-11-03 04:35 pm UTC (link)

I've been loathe to jump into this thread (since I'm not even a footnote to this cast in particular) but this whole topic seems ...ridiculous. I've seen the show some 8-900 times and founded a cast so I'm not without Rocky experience.

Heck, I'm not even sure I fully understand what the complaint IS because a complaint ideally has a solution attached.

Is the solution that women should be more vocal when they're objectified and don't like it? Ok, I can get behind that. Can't say I've heard of this happening, though.

Is the solution that men should be objectified as much as women? No problem but then I have to wonder "what's stopping you?"

Or is the solution that men should be objectified as much as women and not really have the right to reject it? If so, that's bullshit.

And while I'm on a rant, is this an expectation with teeth? What happens if you don't give in to the sexual objectification? Is anyone castigated, ever, for not presenting themselves as a sexual toy? There are several cute girls in the cast who I've never seen presented in an overtly sexual light and AFAIK are none worse for wear.

Consequence is an integral function of expectation. If there is no consequence, there is no expectation. If you don't like it, say so. And like Ella said: if you don't enjoy being thought of as your tits, don't spend every party with them on full display.

Duh.

Jason

(Reply to this)

(46 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Username:		Create an Account Forgot your login or password? Login w/ OpenID
Password:
	Remember Me
	English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…

About

Help

Get Involved

Legal

Store

LJ Labs